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Eric: On the other, other, *other* hand, maybe Max really *is* gay.
(From PvP. Click on the thumbnail for full sized miscalculation!)
And so we come full circle. Miranda, who in the end simply wants what she wants, without consideration of either consequence or other people, has been driven insane by the apparent disinterest of Max Powers. She has finally pulled out the big gun, kissing him full out. Max, who is cheerful, self absorbed, but generally an oddly decent fellow... has fired her as a result.
The question is... why?
Well, on the one hand, there's the possibility that he considers this harassment. Or worse, is worried he'll be opening himself up to a charge of sexual harassment, since he's her boss. But that seems unlikely, all told.
On the other hand, Max might truly be interested, but might feel that he can't very well be involved with one of his employees. When he pursued Jade, he was working for a competing magazine, after all. So, he might have been receptive to all of her advances until now, but because of their professional relationship he may have kept things professional. Now that Miranda's crossed the line, he can't very well pretend it didn't happen. Firing Miranda frees Max to date Miranda.
On the gripping hand... Max might actually, legitimately be in love with Jade. We know he was actively interested in her. We know he helped her feel better when she was feeling badly. And so he might see Miranda's direct interest as both professional suicide and the end of any chance he could have with Jade if she and Brent broke up. (And no, Max has never tried to break Brent and Jade up when they were actively going out, that I remember.)
On the other side of all three of these possibilities we have Miranda's reactions.
If it's the first scenario, Miranda's (eternally selfish) need to seduce any man who's in the area -- to prove she is indeed hotter than her sister -- has finally come back to bite her on the ass. One can't expect this will make her happy.
If it's the second scenario, Miranda might be happy -- especially if Max becomes something of a sugar daddy to her. Miranda, while not a bad person, wouldn't necessarily see anything wrong with accepting "generosity" from a suitor in lieu of working. Sex is a weapon, as she said once before. It's also a tool and a commodity, in Miranda's world. On the other hand... Miranda might be pissed. For Miranda, it's not about actually catching the men. It's about them pursuing her. She would want a fling with Max, definitely. (Especially when she learned that Jade once dated him.) That doesn't mean she wants a long term relationship. So in this scenario, it could go either way.
It it's the third scenario... then Jade has one-upped Miranda once again, even though Jade has no interest in Max. Miranda will go totally psycho Jan Brady. I mean, totally psycho Jan Brady.
Of the three scenarios, my money's on the second. I think Max probably does like her, can't lie to her about it, and can't in good conscience be her employer under those terms. I'm not sure which way Miranda will jump if that's the case -- certainly being the big boss's main squeeze (and therefore seeing herself as 'above' Jade and Brent -- who rejected her, after all) would appeal to our cheerful little red head. And that would lead to conflict, and that conflict would lead to many days of the Funny. On the other hand, finding herself having bitten off more than she could chew, finding that her prospective weekend fling has turned into a long term relationship (and her without a job right now) sets up a totally different conflict, especially if she can't bear the thought of admitting to Jade that she was just interested in seducing Max, not going out with him on any long term relationship.
That leads to conflict as well. And that too brings the Funny.
(The third possibility of this scenario is that Max has second thoughts after a passionate weekend, but feels locked in. And turns to his "old buddies" Cole and Brent for advice. The thought of a drunk Max bitching about Miranda gives me the giggles.)
No matter which of these ways -- or some other way I haven't even considered -- Kurtz goes, there's humor in them thair hills. I'm looking forward to this.
Posted by Eric Burns-White at September 8, 2005 12:34 AM
Comments
Comment from: Zaq posted at September 8, 2005 1:30 AM
I knew it was only a matter of time before this particular PvP story drew you in, it was just a question of when. I had guessed Thursday or Friday, but Kurtz went faster than I had expected (though this is highly unlikely, it's 100% possible that at this stage, this story arc could be "resolved" by the beginning of next week. I doubt Kurtz would do that, but...).
Personally, a very large part of me is rooting for the almost 100% unlikely scenario of Max not revealing anything beyond that, focusing entirely on Miranda's reaction, maybe on Brent and Cole's (or should that be "Brent's and Cole's?" I don't actually own a copy of Strunk and White... that falls under their jurisdiction, wouldn't it?), and Max just being inexplicably Max. Kurtz has always, to my mind, played Max as having a complete life and personality that's infuriating precisely because we see so little of it. As you've explored, Max is actually a decent guy, and it takes an astute reader to notice that (which makes the character all the more delicious), but revealing too much of that kind of tampers with the relationship he has with Brent and Cole. You'll notice that it's extremely rare that they actually interact directly, especially for prolonged periods of time. It's always Cole ranting about what Max has done to piss him off this time (real or exaggerated), and revealing too much of what Max is actually doing casts him in far too positive a light to keep up that dynamic. Sure, the idea of Cole being absolutely spiteful and paranoid about Max in the direct face of him being a decent guy is a new way to take the strip, but it casts Cole in a nearly irreedeemably bad light. Sure, Kurtz could do that and make it funny, but from my understandning of his style, he wouldn't do that. That doesn't smell lke his M.O.
Comment from: DarkStar posted at September 8, 2005 1:33 AM
On the other, other, other, other... oh, nevermind.
This is coming from a severly sleep deprived brain, dealing with wedding anxieties (not about the wedding per se, just about the reception an details). Take this with a grain of coherency.
Miranda is being fired because she isn't working. It's not so much harrasment as the fact that she is slacking in her work and creating a generally hostile environment. She's concentrating on seducing Max, which is reducing her performance in other areas. Areas that Max (the eternal business man) actually cares about.
Whether he likes her, or is gay, or whatever. Not doing your job to play sexy for the boss just isn't in his book. Something you don't do. Something worthy of being downsized. Next time, concentrate on your work. Max is a nice guy, but I think that he is a business minded person foremost. After all, it wasn't his company going under.
Comment from: ANT Link posted at September 8, 2005 2:15 AM
My money's also on the second scenario, though the first one wouldn't surprise me either. I just hope we see some more resolution and follow through on this in the next few days instead of switching over to some other characters/storyline, as Kurtz has tended to do that with previous engaging arcs.
Comment from: JackSlack posted at September 8, 2005 3:04 AM
I'm calling first scenario. Now, keep in mind, Scott Kurtz gets the funny. He gets the funny. So all of the things that I think will happen will happen in ways that include punchlines, but funny, and not seem as heavy as I'm describing it here.
But...
o. Miranda will find herself completely out of a job. Now that PVP is effectively bankrolled by Max, Cole can't save her. He'd be defying his boss pointedly. Miranda might well ask, but he'll turn her down.
o. Jade and Miranda will get a lot of screentime. We're going to get to see the sisterly relationship here.
o. Brent will /cop it/. And he'll deserve it, too. He manipulated Miranda into pursuing Max, and even though she ultimately holds all the blame for what she did, he helped her to that decision and her losing her job. Jade will be pissed.
o. Miranda may end up leaving the strip. Unlike Max, she's not really a major character, and so it wouldn't be implausible to see her exit, stage left.
Maybe this is all too melodramatic. But I think Scott Kurtz is driving for a fall here, and we've just seen her tip over the edge.
Comment from: Tangent posted at September 8, 2005 3:34 AM
It's a better review than I was writing. I'm glad you went and Snarked this. (It let me toss a mediocre review and go with a decent review instead. Though I rambled a bit. Which shows me I shouldn't postpone writing reviews until 11 at night...)
Rob, who also enjoyed the surprise of the comic and your snark of it
Comment from: Tangent posted at September 8, 2005 3:40 AM
BTW, having recently been going through some of the archives (of all the strips I've reviewed, PvP is the one I've not read all of the archives for, partly because I tend to enjoy PvP in spurts and there's a heck of a lot of strips to read *grin*), I do recall Max threatening to post a naked picture of Jade on the internet if she didn't go out on a date with him.
She refused to go out with him.
He scanned the picture and posted it.
It was a baby picture of Jade taking a bath. Quite hideous. :D And Jade swore to kill Max. :D But that one instance showed that Max isn't always a nice decent guy. He can be quite the jerk at times. Heck, I'm an asshole, and I would never do that to a girl (or even to an enemy).
Then again, I might be an asshole... but I'm also a decent enough chap who doesn't mean to hurt people, I just stumble along with my foot in my mouth. *shrug*
So, Max? Good? Nah. Max is human, which means he can be nasty at times and decent at other times. And Miranda? She's getting what she sowed.
Rob
Comment from: Connor Moran posted at September 8, 2005 3:46 AM
I was about a day away from commenting in the Snarkoleptics community about your lack of comment on this storyline, Eric. After all, it's subjects of two major PVP snarks from the early days of Websnark interacting.
And as always, your take is interesting and enlightening.
Comment from: nothings posted at September 8, 2005 6:08 AM
Eric, Eric, Eric.
When you critique what's happened, that's great. But you should know by now it's never a good idea to speculate about what's going to happen.
'Cause when you speculate about what's going to happen, people tend to get hit by anonymous red cars. And none of us want that for Miranda.
Comment from: JackSlack posted at September 8, 2005 7:12 AM
Anonymous? Hey, we knew who drove that car. AND who rented it.
Comment from: Kate Sith posted at September 8, 2005 7:37 AM
Count me among those who've been going nuts waiting for you to snark this.
Cos it's Max! And Miranda! It's like taking the classic PVP snarks and... ::waves arms:: synthesis! I don't know. I'm all out of whack today. But yayy for this.
Comment from: larksilver posted at September 8, 2005 7:52 AM
Yay for snarkage! I personally find Miranda to be a twit, and will enjoy whatever comeuppance she receives for her behavior.
And Kate? The whole waving arms/synthesis thing? What a visual description! I could totally see it, as if a girlfriend of mine was doing that, and got the giggles. Which, at 6:50 in the morning when I've had no sleep.. I needed a lot. Thanks!
Comment from: Paul Southworth posted at September 8, 2005 8:10 AM
"Nothings" has a point, Eric. You've effectively left Kurtz nowhere to go with this story that hasn't been covered, other than to have Max whip out a butcher knife and hack Mirada into tiny bite-sized pieces.
While that certainly would be an interesting twist, I'm sure Scott would have liked to keep this story a little more grounded :) In summary: speculation blows.
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 8, 2005 8:27 AM
What do you mean, nowhere? Maybe Max has been hiding something from us all - he not only can see Skull, but has been secretly crushing on our favorite troll. Nobody has presented that scenario yet.
Of course, I don't expect that to happen.
But you have to admit, the level of surprise everyone would have about it would be hilarious.
Comment from: Paul Gadzikowski posted at September 8, 2005 8:45 AM
What do you mean, nowhere? Maybe Max has been hiding something from us all - he not only can see Skull, but has been secretly crushing on our favorite troll. Nobody has presented that scenario yet.
Of course, I don't expect that to happen.
But you have to admit, the level of surprise everyone would have about it would be hilarious.
Until you said that.
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 8, 2005 9:16 AM
Paul, how many people do you think take what I just wrote seriously? And that's not even counting the PvP readers that don't read Websnark (I personally know a dozen or two). Trust me, there will still be sufficient surprise for me to be entertained.
I personally like thinking outside the dodecahedron. There's always more possibilities than are mentioned.
Comment from: Paul Southworth posted at September 8, 2005 10:37 AM
I was just saying that Eric seems to have presented every logical angle for this story to take, is all. Of course Max could take Miranda on a trip to the Moon or give up on women altogether and start molesting tree stumps, but that wouldn't make sense in the context of the story.
Bottom line: Every time you speculate publicly about a comic's storyline, a cartoonist clenches his buttocks in frustration :)
Comment from: Snelg posted at September 8, 2005 10:46 AM
My immediate guess was that Max is married. As has already been brought up, he seems to have a complete "off-screen" life, and it's been a few years since the Jade incident.
Then again, I thought that was the "obvious" angle, and thus the least funny. But if I can contribute to Kurtz's buttock clenching, well that's funny.
Comment from: Charlie Lewis posted at September 8, 2005 11:27 AM
Um....does anybody have a recommendation for a method to remove the image of Scott Kurtz clenching his buttocks out of my head that doesn't involve alcohol?
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 8, 2005 11:54 AM
Well, I know two methods. The first involves the subject of another PvP strip, trump songs. Sometimes those can drown out bad thoughts.
The other is to think of an even worse thought. However, I doubt the mental image of Scott Kurtz clenching your buttocks in frustration is what you're looking for.
I'm also finding it funny that after Paul says that Eric came up with every logical scenario, Snelg came up with another one. That, and that in a comic featuring a blue genderless troll, a talking cat bent on world domination, a fez that grants incredible gaming prowess, and androids that can kidnap their builders (who needs Asimov's laws?), we probably shouldn't cling too heavily to logic.
Comment from: Paul Southworth posted at September 8, 2005 11:58 AM
Another thing to consider is that most cartoonists work ahead, and if you guess the ending they've already drawn, you ruin it for everyone.
Comment from: Paul Gadzikowski posted at September 8, 2005 12:19 PM
Another thing to consider is that most cartoonists work ahead, and if you guess the ending they've already drawn, you ruin it for everyone.
I don't think I'd had a message board for two weeks before I'd followed up a reader's post with, "I knew having a discussion forum would be bad for spoilers.
"Uh, I mean, stay tuned."
Comment from: Eric Burns posted at September 8, 2005 12:25 PM
Paul (Southworth) -- part of what I do is analysis. And part of analysis is guessing which way the frog will jump. As someone else mentioned, I've been tracking, specifically, the character development of both Max and Miranda for some time now.
Nothing I've got here are spoilers, because I don't know which way the frog will jump. All I've done is presented my own analysis as a fan, and highlighted the depth of Kurtz's characterization.
In other words, I performed conjecture. Which is part of what I do. I do it on other webcomics as well. And to be honest, there isn't a single direction I've listed above that tells A) the jokes Kurtz would use, B) the reactions other characters would have, or C) the actual events. Nor did I list... well, anything that wasn't moderately self-evident.
The idea that somehow a critic/analyst/commentator shouldn't conjecture on future events of a comic strip because they might "spoil" something they don't actually know seems at best odd to me. And for the record, I really don't intend to stop.
Comment from: Ferrous Buller posted at September 8, 2005 12:30 PM
Fourth possibility: Max sees through Miranda. He realizes she's hitting on him for reasons other than personal attraction. And while he tolerated or ignored her earlier efforts, now that she's kissed him, she's crossed the line of what's permissible, especially in an office environment. This would give him two things in common with Brent: they both like Jade and they've both rejected Miranda - and for much the same reason.
Fifth possibility: Max thinks Miranda's some sort of gold digger - that she's hitting on him because she's looking for a sugar daddy. And Max Powers don't let nobody use Max Powers like that. This is in keeping with Max's own tendency towards self-absorption, IMHO, and makes for an amusing contrast with Miranda's self-absorption.
We'll find out soon enough.
Comment from: Jeff Smith posted at September 8, 2005 1:28 PM
Sixth possibility: Max has another relationship going on that we know nothing about.
Comment from: Maritza Campos posted at September 8, 2005 1:34 PM
There are several posibilities.
Not his type.
Too easy. Some men like a challenge.
Not all men follow their sex drive without thinking. There are many reasons why Max would be uncomfortable with Miranda: she's her employee and thus it's unethical, the age difference, the fact she's the sister of someone he actually likes.
She's a jerk. Big turnoff.
She's too young. He might like someone older and more interesting.
Being kissed by someone you didn't expect is a personal space violation.
There's also the more simple possibility, and that is that he just doesn't like Miranda, for whatever reason. The fact that she's hot doesn't mean she'll get any man she wants, even if said man is not dating anyone. Max is pretty succesful in every aspect. I bet he's everything *but* desperate. He can choose.
Maritza
CRFH.net
Comment from: Paul Southworth posted at September 8, 2005 1:36 PM
Oh, I think you will stop, Eric... I think you will.
*patiently sharpens the end of a toothbrush*
Comment from: abb3w posted at September 8, 2005 1:53 PM
I find an inconsistency between your remarks here and your previous Snark about Max. "Simply put, Max Powers, the perpetual antagonist and foil, is actually the good guy in PvP."
I'm begining to agree with that assessment. (As an aside, it would totally justify Cole's attitude towards him; nobody I've ever met has been either interesting or tolerable without a little streak of evil in them.)
I work tech support for an engineering ethics department. They consider me a paragon of virtue; in fact, I just have a deep and cynical assessment of my long term interests, headed by an abiding caution about ever getting caught. So, lets consider Max's motives here. What might he want?
Possibly, to get laid like any other guy. However, we've already postulated that Max is the good guy. Consider that while he's heterosexual, he's decided at this point in his life (college wild oats having been sown) that what he's looking for is a steady, settled, long term conventional monogamous relationship. Which means he's looking for Ms. Right, not Ms. Right-Now. And he may have decided that what he wants in Ms. Right means Ms. Right-Now characteristics are a bad thing. Which would mean Miranda missed the subtle cue of Max's offer with the "personal shopper," which might have been possible to build into something more long term. Instead, she shot herself in the foot big time.
Because if she isn't suitible for Ms. Right, then all of what's been said about harrassment and liability gives major incentive for firing her (sweet, young, firm, perky.... ....OK, I'm back now) backside. At least last I recall, she was an intern. Replacing her is a minor inconvenience at most.
And it helps Max send a classic message: "If you will not set a good example, you will serve as a warning instead."
Of course, he may find out about Brent egging her on to this... which will then (under the "good guy" premise) force Max to formally reprimand Brad. However, merely because Brent waved the bad idea in her direction does not excuse Miranda for following up on it... especially since Brad may mention the previous harassment incident between him and Miranda. Her ass will stay fired.
Really. Max is a purely good, honest, and honorable man. DAMN YOU, MAX POWERS!
Comment from: Tangent posted at September 8, 2005 2:24 PM
Gah! Posting... baby... bathing... pictures... of... Jade... MAX POWERS IS NOT GOOD!!! *twitch*
I'm sorry. The decent, the honorable, the GOOD thing to do if you accidently get someone's baby pictures is to either give those pictures to that person, or to burn them so the abomination of said pic is gone forever. Max did neither. Instead, he tried to blackmail Jade and then followed through with his threat to post the pic on the internet if she didn't go out to dinner with him.
How is that good?
Rob, who freely admits to being evil
Comment from: Connor Moran posted at September 8, 2005 3:14 PM
Actually, I don't think that Eric did cover EVERY base, at least in terms of what's going on in Max's head (which there's a good chance we won't ever even see). I have been basically taking Max at face value, that is, Max actually isn't interested in Miranda. It happens. Only in Miranda's little world is it so inconceivable that a heterosexual man would not be interested in her, which is the joke of this strip in particular, and much of the storyline in general. Miranda's not used to striking out, so it's funny when she does.
If this is the case, then the storyline is effectively over except perhaps for some denouement.
Comment from: themightyemu posted at September 8, 2005 3:39 PM
Well, it could be that Max takes PVP seriously, even if his participation in it is minimal 'onscreen'. He's still the boss, and has responsibilities.
Miranda's actions were unprofessional and crossed the line. Max was opening himself and the company to all sorts of problems if he went along with her advances. Perhaps the ignoring was just wishful thinking that she would give up before he had to confront her about it. He didn't lay down the law because he didn't want to change the status quo (he insisted on Brent continuing insulting him to keep things the way they were) but when directly confronted he didn't have much of a choice.
As for any possible backlash for Brent for egging Miranda on, I doubt that's going to happen. Part of the Miranda/Jade/Brent tension is that Jade has no idea about the extremes Miranda will go to just to one-up her sister; Cole might have figured it out by now, but I doubt anyone else has.
Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at September 8, 2005 4:45 PM
I hadn't read this particular snark, but I have to agree with Southworth. Some people in my forum have begun extreme speculation about the directions of my strips, out to the nth iteration, and each time I end up having to back off and reconsider everything.
In the case of Checkerboard Nightmare, I made it a little too obvious, and it's been painful to upload each strip knowing full well all of my forum readers figured the entire storyline out a week in advance. Having storyline paths speculated on to that degree is frustrating.
Comment from: Eric Burns posted at September 8, 2005 5:10 PM
Mr. Straub -- it sounds like you might want to avoid reading your forums then.
Honestly, I can understand and even empathize with many complaints about the things a critic might do... but complaining because he got so excited about a storyline that he analyzed earlier characterization and speculated on where that characterization might lead?
This one, I just don't get. If someone gets so excited and knows your writing and your work so well that they actually put the pieces together of where they're going, for God's sake give them the visceral pleasure of being right. Only a small percentage of your fans read your forum, after all. Why shouldn't those fans get to say "HAH! I CALLED IT!" every now and again?
More importantly, if what you've already planned is good, why not go with it. Why not enjoy it?
This blog's here so I can comment on the things that move me to comment. And Kurtz's characterization, pacing and execution are absolutely hitting on all cylinders right now. You're damn right I'm going to comment. And you're damn right I'm going to do my best to analyze what he's done, and yes indeed even speculate on where he's going. Why? Because I'm excited. I've spent the day since about noon going to PvP and refreshing the page because I desperately want to know what happens next. And that's reflected in part in the commentary where I try to figure it out.
I don't usually defend myself when people are upset with me. But honestly, this one mystifies me.
Comment from: larksilver posted at September 8, 2005 5:20 PM
Uhm. I can see how that would be frustrating, I really can. However, perhaps you two could look at this from another angle.
There are comics that I enjoy reading, but would never dream of speculating about; once I'm through reading that installment, I file it away and move on. Only those who get my creative juices flowing cause me to speculate at all, to ponder, to want to go off in wild tangents of "what if" with other fans. Not that I do these things.. that's too much like finding my Christmas presents the day after Thanksgiving!
what I'm saying in my "I'm sick and not quite right in the head today" way is that it's a compliment! I know it's frustrating.. but as Eric said up there, it's not like we can tell you what the jokes are going to be, or how it's all going to play out. I can't tell you how many novels I've read where I knew well before the end generally how it would turn out, but still enjoyed the ride and the little subtleties that got us there.
If you don't want your readers to speculate on yer storylines.. er.. then posting in chapters *might* solve yer trouble. But where's the fun in that?
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 8, 2005 6:19 PM
People have anticipated my work before, right down to the opinions I'm going to express. I just look at it as another challenge - how to be better than what people predict.
Comment from: UrsulaV posted at September 8, 2005 6:30 PM
Without meaning to imply that I am anything but the teeniest of fishies in a vast webcomic pond, fans speculate about my strip "Digger" fairly regularly.
More power to 'em. For a good chunk of fans, part of the enjoyment of a strip comes of sitting down and puzzling through the clues to see What This Means, and I wouldn't dream of denying them. I love that. It fills me with warm fuzzy feelings that these people care enough to sit down and beat their heads against it, and some times they even come up with loose ends that I hadn't realized were there that I'm gonna have to deal with. Sure, occasionally I go "ARRGHH!" when somebody displays preternatural brilliance and nails a plot twist six months in advance, but as long as I don't scream "ARRRGH!" in public, nobody knows but me.
Quite recently, I've been working on a blog story thing, where people are having a lot of fun speculating as to the species of one of the characters, and while I've been dropping hints, I genuinely don't want the really clever bastards to nail it too soon, so I asked people not to post their answers once they've figured it out, but to e-mail me if they absolutely have to have a confirmation one way or the other. And people have fallen all over themselves to accomodate me on this--they're not trying to spoil things, this is part of the interactive fan experience. Half the fun is people discussing their theories of why things are happening and who did what, and I'm delighted, because that emotional investment from a fan base in something *I* created is like pure concentrated EgoBoost in a can.
Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at September 8, 2005 6:51 PM
Oh, Eric. I'm not upset with you. Speculation is unstoppable. It just makes creators second-guess, and worry that they're not going to do a good job with it.
Comment from: Aerin posted at September 8, 2005 7:38 PM
If you've laid the groundwork for a plot development far enough in advance that fans deduce it as the next logical step, I really don't see how it's a bad thing. I hate contrivances in stories, where something comes in totally out of the blue to affect the plot. It's sort of like the Harry Potter books. By this time, everyone has figured out that RAB is Sirius' dead brother and that the locket is at the house on Grimmauld Drive. (The book has been out for nearly two months. If this starts drama, I will be forced to shoot someone.) I doubt Rowling is going to say, "Well, I'm going to change everything because I don't want to be predictable." Ursula's got it right: As long as the creator doesn't confirm any speculation, it can't really count as a spoiler.
Comment from: Kate Sith posted at September 8, 2005 8:31 PM
And Kate? The whole waving arms/synthesis thing? What a visual description! I could totally see it, as if a girlfriend of mine was doing that, and got the giggles. Which, at 6:50 in the morning when I've had no sleep.. I needed a lot. Thanks!
I do try. ^^
Comment from: roninkakuhito posted at September 8, 2005 8:47 PM
Mr. Straub, I know that if it annoys you when your fans figure out what you are going to do next, then there isn't really anything you can do about it, but look upon it as an accolade of your writing. If you are internally consistant enough that people can regularly figure out where you are going, and occasionally figure out what a specific milestone on the trip is going to be, you should be thrilled. I know that over at Schlock Mercenary, a big portion of what the fandom is all about is trying to figure out what Howard is going to do next. (and to tease out bits and pieces of the assumptions of the setting that aren't explicitly drawn out, like exactly what type of timestream his universe has) and from what I've seen Mr. Taylor has a great deal of fun with fan speculations (and due to how he plans things out, he doesn't really have the choice to rewrite to avoid a solution someone else came up with.) I know that he occasionally chimes in to correct a mistake where someone has misrecalled past events and such, and honestly, the fact that the events in his Schlockverse (thanks Mr. Webber for creating that series of portmanteaus) can be logically determined from previous events (with the occasional out of nowhere "whothewhahuh?") is one of the strongest points of his writing.
Comment from: larksilver posted at September 8, 2005 9:29 PM
It's funny, and amazing, that Ursula's fans figure out where she's going. That's one of my very favorite-est strips, but I wouldn't even dream of guessing where she's going with a storyline - NOT because I don't wonder, not because I'm not hungry.. H-u-n-g-r-y for the next installment in the story, but because I have absolutely no idea where to start speculatin'. Maybe Digger fans, like Websnark fans, are a cut above the usual suspect, and I'm just not as bright as they are. heh
I mean, c'mon, who would have expected a half-dead god with his heart hanging in the air, or an insane priest, or.. or... or... oh, hell, you get the idea.
Comment from: Connor Moran posted at September 8, 2005 11:14 PM
All of this talk is making me miss Scott Mccloud's Morning Improv. Forum expectations there were an importannt element of the comic, particularly in cases where it was clear that Scott was totally making stuff up as he went along. "Mimi's Last Coffee," particularly, is almost totally predicated on the speculation that the title engenders.
Not to say that Scott wouldn't do things the same way if he didn't have the forum, but there was certainly a part of the experience that was based in sharing speculation.
Comment from: dreamshade posted at September 9, 2005 4:43 AM
Well, I can think of at least one well-known artist who stopped reading his forums, but I believe that was more of out lack of sympathy for the human race than for story speculation. And Spaghetti God knows only the brave dare Megatokyo's Story Discussions board.
The follow-up strip has to be one of Scott's better joke progressions, at least.
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 9, 2005 7:58 AM
The Megatokyo boards now aren't that bad at all anymore. Now, it's mostly just people asking about what's going to happen and people tripping over themselves to praise Gallagher. I like Megatokyo still, but the tongue bathing going on in their forums is bordering on creepy. However, it's the same general tone, albeit in higher volume, as in most webcomic forums.
Comment from: Kludge posted at September 9, 2005 8:57 AM
I for one like the way this discussion is going, and will gladly second any calls for the end of criticism (in the neutral sense) and discussion.
People seem to want to talk about things a lot nowadays. There's too much jaw-jaw, it's driving me nuts.
Comment from: larksilver posted at September 9, 2005 9:21 AM
If one doesn't want to read extensive discussion about snarks.. er.. perhaps one should not read the comments, but instead read the main page only? We Snarkoleptics like to talk amongst ourselves, and are unrepentant about it. Or at least I am, which is everyone in the Royal House of Me, so that's all I can speak about authoritatively.
Comment from: 32_footsteps posted at September 9, 2005 9:33 AM
To quote Randy Milholland, how else will people know what to complain about, then? After spending the last 6 years as a critic, I've come to find that people always want something to complain about, even if it's complaining about other people complaining (or critiquing, in this case).
Comment from: Ferrous Buller posted at September 9, 2005 12:42 PM
It's a variant on the "infinite monkeys on typewriters" premise: get enough forum dwellers speculating about something and sometimes they'll be right. :-)
Comment from: Maritza Campos posted at September 9, 2005 12:48 PM
I don't mind my forums, where people have made an art of speculation. I love firing up people's imagination. And I am *still* unpredictable, because even if someone guesses what's next, it's so lost in a sea of speculation nobody actually expects it.
HAHA!
Maritza
CRFH.net
Comment from: thok posted at September 9, 2005 5:30 PM
For those authors who don't want to read speculation, you might try modelling your forums after Sluggy Freelance-they have separate reactions and speculation forums. The reactions forum gives people a chance to say "Wow that's neat!" to a given strip without speculating.
Incidentally, the one forum I spend the most time is for Bob and George. That's also the comic I spend the most effort on speculation. (Now all of the anti-sprite comics elitists will look at me funny).
Comment from: ANT Link posted at September 12, 2005 8:18 PM
And, what do you know. Despite all this discussion and speculation, Kurtz still managed to go in a direction neither of us had predicted (and one that seems to validate the first scenario after all):
http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20050912
Looks like there will be funny to be had, only not the kind we'd predicted, since things have more or less gone back to status quo now that Miranda gets to keep her job.
Of course, if Max is the one conducting her training...
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