Websnark

Comment from: Paul Southworth posted at May 24, 2005 1:54 PM

Actually, if the "label" is "blank", then it is, in fact, "spotless". So it makes sense even if you don't know what's going on. Besides, it's a completely innocent tagline, people! Get your minds out of the gutter! Seriously, though, it's not our official tagline. I agree that it might seem mean-spirited at first, but I see it as merely trying to capitalize on the minor publicity this is generating. Having just broken off from Keenspot, we're going to need all the help we can get. "Spotless" actually came up when we were tossing around names for Blank Label, but we immediatley judged it way too harsh, and we also decided that we didn't want our departure from Keenspot to define us. But it seemed like a funny little thing to stick on our banners at the debut.

Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at May 24, 2005 2:11 PM

Yeah, "Spotless" was not intended to be the Official Blank Label "Ha Ha, We Totally Won, You Guys" Catch Phrase, but one of many sayings that would appear in that space. I haven't had time to add any others though. It also isn't supposed to be plastered all over our pages indefinitely; those banners are placeholders for our ad system.

Comment from: John Troutman posted at May 24, 2005 2:25 PM

Sure, make all the excuses you want, you two. We all know that you're HORRIBLE ASSHOLES.

Seriously though, I actually thought it WAS a somewhat mean-spirited jab, although that's probably just because it's plastered literally EVERYWHERE, as oppossed to being just one of many catchphrases in the rotation.

Comment from: Maritza Campos posted at May 24, 2005 2:32 PM

I don't really mind the "spotless". But I think that the name is a bit too corporate... uh, serious. Dumbrella = fun. Drunk Duck = fun. But Blank Label? It sounds like a software company. The logo has some cool colors tho. I also like the web design on the main page. Classy, baby!

Of course this is all moot, since Blank Label is, indeed, a business association. I don't think it's supposed to be a "face" for the comics in the collective. On checking the websites, you could only guess they're BL comics because they have either a banner or a small logo. They don't have a jumpstation to each other in their individual pages, just in the home page. Going solely by the pages one could conclude that Scott Kurtz is part of the collective, since he has a banner of it right now in his main page.

In any case, the idea is good. There is independence but also pooling of ideas, brainstorming, and some support. I predict great things for these guys.

Comment from: Petie posted at May 24, 2005 2:40 PM

I winced a bit when I saw "Spotless". Not only at the joke itself, but for the kindling that it'll provide for the anti-Keenspot fires. I don't think it was anybody's intention, but people will use it as such.

Comment from: joeymanley posted at May 24, 2005 2:47 PM

I felt like it pointed backwards, at where they had been, rather than forwards, at where they are going. And I'd rather have seen them focusing on the latter. But that's just me.

Joey

www.moderntales.com

Comment from: scrubbo posted at May 24, 2005 2:55 PM

I snorted a laugh when I saw it. And since it's not their official 'tag line' or anything I don't think any umbrage need be taken. Leave that umbrage where it was! :)

I'm excited for these guys. They've all got talent and drive, and I hope they make something good come of it!

Comment from: Phalanx posted at May 24, 2005 3:30 PM

"Spotless" was actually one of the suggestions for Keenspace's new name. I guess it got shot down pretty quickly.

Comment from: stubbs posted at May 24, 2005 3:50 PM

At the risk of not inflaming anything, I didn't read the "spotless" text as a dig at all, more of a look at me ma, I'm flying without an net.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 24, 2005 4:16 PM

I can vouch for these guys that NOT making any digs at Keenspot on the way out was a top priority for them. Trust me, I encouraged them to take a shot and they all insisted NO.

I saw the spotless tag as a statement of independence, not that of a dig or a slight to anyone at Keenspot.

Comment from: Chris Anthony posted at May 24, 2005 4:19 PM

And I am in awe of their website and java rollovers.

Actually, the web design is the one thing that bugs me, and even then it's just that the image links to the comics, big and colorful in the center of the page, are Flash.

It's true that it's Really Slick, but it doesn't let me right-click (to bookmark a link to a comic, or to open a comic's page in a new tab). And while yes, there are HTML hyperlinks to the comics on the left, they blend with the page in a way that the images in the center don't - so I have to go hunting, instead of just being able to click on the immediately-obvious images of Monica or Chex.

Yeah, this might just be me griping - but I do see it as a design flaw, and feel obliged to point it out.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 24, 2005 4:45 PM

It might be a pain to do so, but I believe context menus in flash can be modified, so it could theoritically be possible that they could add special navigation options by right-clicking. You may never be able to click the mouse wheel and say "yay, new tab!", but it's still possible that most other navigation options could be added.

Comment from: Steve Troop posted at May 24, 2005 4:54 PM

Actually, in the early days of BLC, it was all HTML rollovers.

Blame Bill Gates. Flash was the only way to address concerns about cross-platform Internet Explorer issues.

Steve

Comment from: Wednesday posted at May 24, 2005 5:01 PM

Or, alternatively, Not Rollovers. (ISTR some workable, gracefully degrading rollovers that IE would cope with, over on A List Apart, but I could be wrong.)

Why'd I think that was not-Flash?

Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at May 24, 2005 6:40 PM

I have to put in an image alternative for the people who don't use Flash. No rollovers, just an image. I can't stand Javascript, even if it is the rollover king. I wanted to use CSS, but there's too many differences between how browsers handle it.

Comment from: Greg Dean posted at May 24, 2005 8:01 PM

So just do what I do - ignore the idiotic browsers, and just let CSS do it's thang. :D

Comment from: The Matt Who Is posted at May 24, 2005 8:37 PM

Speaking as someone who has followed the Breakaway only peripherally, when I saw the tagline my first thought was Blank=Spotless, not Blank=Keenspotless. People who want to be all anti-Keenspot will be so, regardless of the Blank Label folks actions.

It is good to hear from the Blankers, though. A little reassurance that they're not trying for actual antagonism with Keenspot goes a long way.

If anyone knows who stole Jennie Breeden's car, please hit them. Lots.

Matt

Comment from: Bob Stevenson posted at May 24, 2005 10:00 PM

It's interesting to look at the whole thing from the outside, way outside. Sure, I have read some of the strips on Blank Label, but I've been on my own for a couple of years now so their move to collective independence doesn't sound so exciting. These guys already have thousands more hits than me a day, or, ulp, tens of thousands. It seems a bit like a sure thing. I mean, I wish them luck, but for me the more mystifying thing is why so many artists bother with the keen route at all, to get those thousands of readers I guess. Sorry, but the whole thing feels like a bit of a non-story.

(Bravo for getting so much play with it though.)

Comment from: RKMilholland posted at May 24, 2005 10:13 PM

"Sorry, but the whole thing feels like a bit of a non-story."

Six of the bigger names leaving Keenspot all at once and starting their own web-syndicate is a story. Just because it doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it isn't important or interesting news to others.

Comment from: Merus posted at May 25, 2005 3:49 AM

What, exactly, is the difference between a syndicate and a collective?

'Cause it seems to me that Blank Label isn't going to be doing a whole bunch of cross-promoting. You could probably call them a syndicate as they're apparantly sharing server space and will presumably have common ad servers and the like, but the biggest difference is that Blank Label doesn't look like it's going to accept new comics (unless, presumably, they have a pre-existing relationship) so it won't be much like Keenspot where people try to get into the syndicate.

Comment from: Bob Stevenson posted at May 25, 2005 9:30 AM

"Just because it doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it isn't important or interesting news to others." -RK Milholland

First of all, the move directly affects only a very, very small group of people and a larger group only indirectly (less hits for some keeners).

So exactly what about it is important? As Merus notes, they don't seem to have a formula for incorporating other strips and there are already dozens of little islands of web-comic bands out there. The main difference seems to be that they've got Scott and Eric interested in the move (Is Scott being paid to run the ads for Blank Label?).

The size of the audience on these particular strips might qualify the whole thing as important, but that alone? So we read their strips on a different server on pages without keen ads. If it inspires dozens of others to try similar moves, you've certainly got importance and I hope that's where it's headed, but that's not clear yet.

Comment from: webrunner posted at May 25, 2005 11:06 AM

Well, the thing is, despite what Blank Label wants, this whole affair seems to be defined by the fact they left Keenspot to do this. This hurts Keenspot's reputation, and in a way hurts their reputation, without either being really related.

There's a lot of people who want to see Keenspot fail, and I'm very interested as to why that is.

Comment from: Bob Stevenson posted at May 25, 2005 11:52 AM

I don't mean to suggest that I'd like to see Keanspot fail. Rather, I just like the notion of more options for web-comics. So in that sense, I guess it still has the potential to be an important story.

Comment from: webrunner posted at May 25, 2005 12:13 PM

I'm not saying anyone in particular, I'm just saying a lot of people seem to latch on to anything bad that happens to Keen, then they point to it, yell "SEE!?" and people start taking sides.

What people need to realise is that anything bad that happens to Keen is bad for the industry as a whole. An industry can't grow if it's knocking itself down like this.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 25, 2005 1:41 PM

Well all the comics under "Blank Label" continue to use the logo as their icon? I thought the old icons were better, and my favorites folder agrees. It misses having "IW", "SP", and the picture of Chex.

That's right--bookmark folders have feelings too.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 25, 2005 1:43 PM

Oops, my bad--it appears Chex is still there. The tag under firefox either lied to me, or there's some glitch going on. Either way, it's good to see Chex.

Comment from: Ray Radlein posted at May 25, 2005 2:27 PM

I agree about the favicons, although so far it looks like only the comics which didn't already have a favicon — like Wapsi Square — are getting the "Blank Label" logo.

Comment from: William_G posted at May 25, 2005 3:26 PM

"Just because it doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it isn't important or interesting news to others."

-That Groovy Milholland Guy

I agree that it's interesting news, and it's good that the six of them are taking a chance at earning more money for their work. But I don't see it as important since they're not doing anything that anyone else couldn't do. Especially since we're in the era of bandwidth flowing like hookers through a Motel 6.

I think Keenspot has the best chance of coming out of this smelling like roses. Assuming they make some smart decisions about where to go from here and don't stick with the status quo.

Comment from: William_G posted at May 25, 2005 3:28 PM

Which they probably wont, with the webcomics world starting to look as stratified as print these days.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 25, 2005 5:45 PM

"...although so far it looks like only the comics which didn't already have a favicon Û like Wapsi Square Û are getting the "Blank Label" logo."

Not according to my favicons. "Shortpacked" and "It's Walky" used to have simple but distinctive icons, but after visiting them after their change over to blank label, the icons changed.

I can kind of understand why they'd want the same favicons, but at the same time, it almost makes them appear to be more of a conglomerate than Keenspot. It's not like all the Keenspot comics have "K" favicons. Having them all with the blank label favicon hurts the "helping each other but still independant" image in my opinion.

It also adds precious nanoseconds to finding what I want in my favorites list! True, worse things could happen than meaning to visit "Shortpacked" and accidently clicking on "Melonpool", but I need those nanoseconds for complaining in forums about favicons!

Comment from: Kazriko Redclaw posted at May 25, 2005 6:03 PM

 >> How many years did Keenspot pay the hosting and bandwidth costs for them? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a post that stated that the Ad revenue generated by a comic first had the hosting and bandwidth fees deducted from them before the remainder was split between the cartoonist and Keenspot? Unlike Keen/Toon/Webcomicspace where the ad revenue is directly pocketed by Keenspot.

I suppose it wasn't the most authoritative site for keenspot information however. Kurtz' rant.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 25, 2005 6:21 PM

Myth #1: There is no webcomics industry. There is no large commercial exchange of webcomics. There are a handful of people making anything more than extra spending money from their webcomics. So there is no "industry" to help or hurt.

Myth #2: There is no webcomics community. There's more of a webcomics mob. There is an heirarchy of the haves and the have-nots. The "haves" are hated for their success and the "have-nots" do the hating. It's a group founded on insecurity and jealousy.

Comment from: webrunner posted at May 25, 2005 6:39 PM

I only used the word "industry" for lack of a better term. The point I was making is that webcomics as a whole would suffer a kick to the nuts if Keenspot were to suddenly collapse.

And you're right, there is a lot of inscurity and jealousy. That is a major problem. If the 'have-nots' end up toppling the haves, and become haves themselves, then anotehr group of have-nots will take their place and topple them, and we will never have an 'industry'.

Can you imagine where Webcomics would be today if people started plotting PA, Megatokyo, Sluggy, PVP etc's demise as soon as they started getting popular, and suceeded?

Comment from: Sam Logan posted at May 25, 2005 7:02 PM

"The have-nots do the hating"? Come on. Sure, a noisy minority like to slam other authors unfairly. We've all seen it. But that kind of behaviour is hardly representative of the majority, and it's hardly restricted to the authors of unpopular comics, either.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. We'd better check. Does everyone in this thread either draw a fabulously successful webcomic or hate Scott Kurtz? Show of hands!

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 25, 2005 7:21 PM

Keenspot collapsed years ago. They're stagnant. Nothing new is going on there. It's really nothing more than a convenient hosting and comic serving infastructure.

Comment from: webrunner posted at May 25, 2005 7:50 PM

I won't argue they aren't changing fast enough, but in order for a company to collapse it has to, you know, be losing money and go out of business.

A 'collapsed' business doesn't operate in the black, it doesn't operate at all.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 25, 2005 7:57 PM

Fair enough. What I'm trying to say is that Keenspot is not a media company. It's a hosting and linking service for webcomics, and not a very good one at that.

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 25, 2005 9:14 PM

Ignore the angry man in the gaming fez. He's just upset that we haven't had the decency to collapse on cue.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 25, 2005 10:54 PM

Well, you could either have the decency to eitehr collapse or take a step forward. Either or, right?

Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at May 25, 2005 11:48 PM

"I can kind of understand why they'd want the same favicons, but at the same time, it almost makes them appear to be more of a conglomerate than Keenspot. It's not like all the Keenspot comics have "K" favicons. Having them all with the blank label favicon hurts the "helping each other but still independant" image in my opinion."

Dan, we added a default favicon.ico for everyone because the error logs were filling up with "couldn't find favicon.ico" errors at an incredible rate. We were pulling down like a gig a day in text files full of that error alone.

The guys can put whatever they want in that space; they just haven't yet.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 26, 2005 12:08 AM

I didn't know not having a favicon could cause errors... then again, I have no idea what kinda code setup you guys are using now.

In any case, thanks for clearing that up, Kris ^_^

Here's hoping Melonpool gets a unique favicon; it was always the comic I wanted to see the next update most for, but it often slipped my mind in the morning. Melonpool's mug in my bookmarks folder would help with my early morning brain processes ^_^

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 12:17 AM

Scott Kurtz said:

Keenspot collapsed years ago. They're stagnant. Nothing new is going on there. It's really nothing more than a convenient hosting and comic serving infastructure.

Really. If that is so, why are you so angry at them and find the need to constantly run around and yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"?

Personally, I support the comics hosted by Keenspot, not KS itself. I'm in it for CRfH, CotC, EGS, and other such strips. But if it were not for Keenspot, then how many of those strips would still be here?

I *remember* when EGS was struggling, suffering from a lack of ad revenues. The hosting fees were taking a toll out of Dan, as was the increased readership. (Ironic, that.) Keenspot offered to Spot him... and that problem ended. CotC would not be here today if Jamie had to pay for hosting fees on top of everything else, and we'd have lost some fantastic stories from Jamie.

Kurtz also said:

Fair enough. What I'm trying to say is that Keenspot is not a media company. It's a hosting and linking service for webcomics, and not a very good one at that.

Oh, and you think that the Modern Tales model is so much better? Why don't you join MT then and force your readers to pay a subscription fee to read your comic's archives? You know, I've not read PvP's archives even though they're free. I definitely wouldn't pay to read them.

(I *would*, however, pay (and did) to read Narbonic's archives, and RoCR, and Ice (Darn it, Joey, get Faith an FTP setup so she can load Ice on the MT servers again! Or fix whatever is wrong... I *miss* that comic!) and No Stereotypes (which is leaving MT, btw))

Keenspot started out as a collective for webcomics. When the on-line advertising market collapsed, they continued to pay for hosting fees and the like, keeping the comics they hosted alive. They worked at a loss if need be. And they then expanded into the "Keenswag" line and found other ways to become profitable (though I honestly wish they'd thought out the KS Premium service better).

Oh, what was that? Yes, I *criticized* Keenspot just now on what I see as a flaw in their business plan. So no, I'm not some "mindless Keenspot drone" protecting them. Instead, I'm pointing out that you, Emperor Kurtz, are wearing no clothes.

Scott Kurtz finished with:

Well, you could either have the decency to either collapse or take a step forward. Either or, right?

Ah. In other words, Keenspot isn't dying fast enough for your satisfaction and you are going to do everything you can to force them into the grave. Remember, Keenspot is not just Gav or Crosby. There are other partners to think of, and they all have a say in this. They are working on plans that will help Keenspot remain profitable without taking risks that could leave all of the webcomic creators that rely on them out in the cold if it fell through and Keenspot did go up in flames (like you love to predict they will).

Oh, and as for your little pet project, Blank Label Comics... I wish the best for them. But I see a fundamental flaw in this Confederation of Comics. These six individuals are pooling their knowledge to create a company... but each comic is (if I understand the fundamental basics of it) responsible for its own profits and marketing.

So if, say, one of the creators goes for a couple of months and finds that things are not working like he or she hoped... and cannot spend the time needed to create the marketing to remain profitable, then that person will go under.

They may close up shop and stop doing their webcomic, or they may return to Keenspot. And Keenspot has already shown a perfect willingness to accept back old creators into the fold.

Blank Label might survive one person leaving. But two? Three? At what point would Blank Label collapse under its own bylaws of confederacy, leaving people to struggle on their own or return to a company that already did all of that for them?

Personally, I'm hoping they manage to keep it together. I'm a big fan of Wapsi Square and Melonpool. (I am not as big a fan of Shortpacked, but that's because I think Willis is being pulled in two directions here and should just say "bleep it", turn Shortpacked into the gag-a-day strip half his readership wants, and start up a *new* webcomic that does an ongoing and involved storyline to satisfy the *other* half of his audience.)

Robert A. Howard, Tangents reviewer

http://tangents.keenspace.com

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 26, 2005 12:18 AM

Actually, now I'm REALLY curious what Blank Label does with favicons--Checkerboard Nightmare's favicon is showing up as a light orange square in my firefox browser tabs and by the web address, but still shows up as Chex in the bookmarks folder o_O

Comment from: Bookworm posted at May 26, 2005 12:55 AM

Every time someone checks a site, it looks for a favicon.ico file. Most of the sites didn't have one in their directories, so I slapped together something generic, and dropped it into the directories.

That means that every time someone checked a page, or another link, there was another "cannot find favicon.ico" in the error log for the site.

Thousands of them build up quickly, and flood out the real errors.

If I'd realized that people would have nitpicked so hard on it, I'd have used a blue ball or something.

Comment from: Ray Radlein posted at May 26, 2005 12:58 AM

I think I've figured out the favicons thing — once a bookmark item gets a favicon associated with it, Firefox is very hesitant to permanently replace it with a new one (it's possible, of course, that this behavior might depend on some combination of preference settings that both of our setups share — assuming you use FF too, that is). As a result, the comics which had no favicon get the ugly Blank Label one, and the ones that already have one retain theirs. That's why my bookmarked favicons for Wigu and Overcompensating are slightly different versions of Topato, rather than the TopatoCo logo that currently adorns both comics, for instance.

Comment from: Ray Radlein posted at May 26, 2005 12:59 AM

assuming you use FF too, that is

It's official. I am thick.

Comment from: DanShive posted at May 26, 2005 1:14 AM

Well, now that an explanations been given, there's not much to nitpick about. I wouldn't have given it a second thought if I knew not having a favicon could cause errors; having a default is only logical, and it's only logical that it be the logo. You did good.

I'm still confused by the light orange square that appears for Chex in my browser, but that may be just "one of those weird things" that pop up from time to time online when using different browsers.

Comment from: Bookworm posted at May 26, 2005 1:17 AM

The light orange square was the first attempt to put that exact icon in. For some reason, the GIMP took it and saved it wonky. I then redid it and saved it slightly differently, but CxN had already gotten hit by a bunch of people.

Mea culpa

Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at May 26, 2005 1:20 AM

"These six individuals are pooling their knowledge to create a company... but each comic is (if I understand the fundamental basics of it) responsible for its own profits and marketing."

How much external marketing do you think Keenspot does for its cartoonists? It does none (outside of Free Comic Book Day, I suppose). Keenspotters are as responsible for their own press as we are.

About the only venues for advertising are wholly internal, and if you saw my newsbox at CRFH last month and didn't like my strip, you probably won't give a damn two months later either when I run another newsbox. It's advertising to all the same pairs of eyes -- you spike on Newsbox Day, but it bleeds off to your previous number of pageviews two days later. Keenspot didn't even have a "news spot" on their front page until last year, I believe. There was nowhere to even serve current events from. I'm not saying this because I want Keenspot to end. I'm saying it because I hope they change it!

Your argument is that without Keenspot's help, suddenly it becomes far, far more difficult to host a strip -- so difficult that now failure becomes an option. Well, I'll be honest -- it does become a little more difficult. The six of us have been working our asses off in the last couple months. But we felt it was worth it. And when we looked at the logistics, it was far, far less difficult than we'd imagined.

Contrary to what a small handful of cartoonists feel, we do not want to see Keenspot die. Keenspot has about 60 cartoonists in its roster. There's no reason why Keenspot shouldn't be blasting every Dumbrella, Dayfree and Blank Label out of the water, ten times over.

So why does it feel like they're not? And why does it feel like they don't really care that they're not? I feel that Keenspot must fundamentally be the same company it was in 2000. It had a hook, it came on strong at the beginning, but it's been more or less coasting all this time. And I'm sorry, I don't think that just coasting is the end of the journey.

There are a lot of good people at Keenspot. And I love Howard Tayler's comment on Chris Crosby, that one man's optimism is enough to shore up the entirety of webcomics! Because I believe that's been true! But I don't think it's enough to just have patience and optimism anymore. You have to make a move. You have to go out and do it. That's what Blank Label means to me.

Comment from: Eric Burns posted at May 26, 2005 1:27 AM

It's been an exhausting day's traveling, and one where I got to witness (and unwillingly participate in) the destruction of both my Treo cell phone and my ipod. So I'm tetchy, for the record.

So. Very briefly.

Debate the issues, not the people.

That is all. Time to sleep a musicless sleep.

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 1:42 AM

Straub, you misconstrue my point. Primarily, I'm debating Kurtz in his insistance that Keenspot is going down. My use of Blank Label Comics is just an example, not a prediction of doom and gloom.

Of course, I fully admit I don't know what Spotters go through for marketing and such, but I felt that if there was a "Keenswab" marketing, it was something Keenspot had come up with to help the cartoonists, so they don't have to do everything in one.

And as I stated, for the record, I hope that Blank Label Comics is a success, that you all succeed in your efforts. I wish the same thing for Howard Tayler. I wish the same thing for Glych. I wish it for Kurtz, though he has succeeded already from the sounds of it.

I know how far wishes can get you. That and a couple of dollars can get you a coffee at Dunkin Donuts. You six have a lot of hard work ahead of you. And I do worry that the webcomic might turn from a dream, something you enjoy working on, and into a stressful job that isn't what you wanted it to be.

The important thing is this. You have taken that step into the unknown and are working to succeed. When things are looking tougher in the future (and they will, things are never always rosy, and I'm sure even Scott Kurtz has had days where he looks at PvP and wonders what he's going to do to keep it a success) think back to these early days and this absolute courage that helped you strike off on your own.

And then keep on keeping on.

Best of luck to you.

Robert A. Howard, Tangents reviewer

http://tangents.keenspace.com

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 1:44 AM

Eric... um... eep? Damn, I hope that whatever caused the destruction of your cellphone and ipod allows recompensation for their destruction (ie, insurance or the like).

*sigh* This is why I didn't take my fancy and good-quality digital camera with me to ComicCon 2001. I didn't want to risk its loss.

Rob

Comment from: William_G posted at May 26, 2005 1:47 AM

"Keenspot collapsed years ago. They're stagnant."

-Scotty

Not that I entirely disagree with you, but don't you think using someone else's webspace to push your own personal agenda is a bit tacky? This aint a messageboard.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 26, 2005 6:49 AM

from Tangent: "Really. If that is so, why are you so angry at them and find the need to constantly run around and yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"?"

Tangent, what makes you a more appropriate commentator on webcomics than me? Wouldn't my opinion on Keenspot be as valid as yours? In fact, considering that I have more experience in this area than you, and the fact that I obviously have discussed the internal problems of Keen with ex-spotters in detail, wouldn't I be in a BETTER position than you to comment on Keenspot?

So, how did my opinion suddenly become an "agenda" and amount to me running around saying "The sky is falling?"

There is more than ample empherical evidence that Keenspot doesn't do much for it's cartoonists beyond providing centralized hosting, internal linking, and common branding. On more than one occasion, Crosby and Keen management has made "pie in the sky" promises of progress to it's cartoonists, yet can barely maintain simple administrative and technical tasks.

Without any "inside information", just by reading posts made public by current and ex-keenspotters, one can deduce that currently what Keenspot has to offer is a really great deal for cartoonists...in 1999.

Webhosting, managing of URLs, internal linking and brand association are all things that any individual or small group of cartoonsits could provide themselves with minimal research, cost and effort.

More and more you are seeing cartoonists individually and collectively break away, go independent and not only survive, but prosper outside of Keenspot. And that has nothing to do with me, Blank Label or any "agenda" that I might or might not have. That's just plain obvious.

Robert, you've emailed me more than once with your ramblings and observations. I've read a couple of your "commentaries" online too. But you need a more objective perspective. You keep looking for conspiracy and ignoring obvious facts.

William G said: "Don't you think using someone else's webspace to push your own personal agenda is a bit tacky? This ain't a messageboard."

No. I'm on topic. What's the problem?

Comment from: William_G posted at May 26, 2005 7:49 AM

William G said: "Don't you think using someone else's webspace to push your own personal agenda is a bit tacky? This ain't a messageboard."

No. I'm on topic. What's the problem?

No, you don't think it's tacky?

Anyway, Scott's right in that there isn't a webcomics industry. And there never will be simply because comics are simply not a product the public demands. Obviously, there is some small demand for it, much like there's a demand for scat porno, but not enough to get everyone paid. The current supply far exceeds the number of people willing to pay for comics (not tee shirts or mugs, comics).

What we have right now is fierce competition for selling art to a small group. We're all fighting for society's table scraps. It makes sense that the hungry up-and-comers (or, "the have nots" as they've been called) will be kicking against the glass ceiling that the old timers represent. And while top guys do have the inertia that comes with being settled in their spots, eventually all of them will get pushed out of the way.

And that's the way it should be. Can you all imagine how absolutely fucking boring music would be if all we had to listen to were the Rolling Stones?

If Keenspot were smart about it, they'd start trying to tap into those up-and-comers and using their drive and determination to take control of the webcomics world again. No doubt that there's a lot of quality in the big guys, but there's a lot of quality outside of the glare of the spotlights, and one of those may be the comic to cross over into the non-geek world if they're give the correct exposure that Keenspot could provide. It's obvious that the big names out there right now aren't crossing over.

Yes, Keenspot is stagnant, but quite honestly, so is the top tier of the webcomics world. As popular as the Blank Label Six are, they're not providing anything new. Keenspot has the potential to find those untapped markets of comic readers by providing just that.

Otherwise, it's the same comics frighting for the same table scraps.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 26, 2005 8:09 AM

William, there is no glass ceiling on the web. The only thing preventing up and comers from breaking out is their product.

In Music, Television or Film you have editors, studio execs and producers determining which products make it to the mass distribution. Not so on the web. There is no bottleneck for these up and comers otehr than the quality of their work and it's accessibility to readers.

Nothing is preventing you from taking my spot except for you.

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 9:35 AM

Kurtz said:

Robert, you've emailed me more than once with your ramblings and observations. I've read a couple of your "commentaries" online too. But you need a more objective perspective. You keep looking for conspiracy and ignoring obvious facts.

Unfortunately, you are not that voice. You talk of objectivity and yet nearly every time you start talking about Keenspot you foam at the mouth. I mean, what, did Chris Crosby accidently run over your puppy a few years ago or something?

But yes, we definitely need an objective perspective, and one that has been here for a while. (Nevermind the fact that yes, I have been on the internet since 1988, I'm sure you speak in terms of webcomic objectivity.)

Fortunately, we do have another such person. His name is Eric Burns. He does Websnark. And he has no axes to grind, no agendas to maintain, or reasons to lie.

I have not seen Eric Burns go around and say that Keenspot is going to crash and burn. I've not seen him say that Keenspot is stagnant or that it is taking unfair advantage of its cartoonists. I do remember when that little incident happened with Friendly Hostility and he misconstrued what had happened... and then when he found out the truth, he printed a retraction of the article.

But more importantly, he printed a retraction without just editing out the statements that were wrong and pretending it didn't happen. Eric believes that if he makes a mistake, people deserve to see that he made that mistake. I also remember a certain libelous statement you printed about Chris Crosby and Keenspot at that same period of time. Nary an apology was to be heard, and all you did was silently delete the libelous lines in question.

I prefer Eric's method. It's more honest.

Likewise, I prefer to believe Eric's view on this. He's not shown a blatant agenda concerning Keenspot. Yes, I have been going out of my way to debate you on this topic, but you know something? I do it because I want you to be honest. The only honesty I see in your posts is your ire toward Keenspot and its ownership.

Now look at Eric for a moment. People believe him when he says something. Why? It's how he presents himself. He retains politeness at all times, he is publically accountable for his statements and his mistakes, and he sounds like an intelligent and well-thought-out individual.

But I'll tell you what: if you publically end your vendetta against Keenspot and its staff, stop with the snide attacks on Keenspot and start acting like a professional instead of a high school jock with a vendetta, and manage to show, through language and the like, that you are being honest in letting this go... then I will believe you when you go around saying that Keenspot is in trouble.

Until then you'll just sound like you're spouting hot air. And even if you have something legit to say, most of us will not believe you.

Robert A. Howard, Tangents reviewer

http://tangents.keenspace.com

Comment from: William_G posted at May 26, 2005 11:43 AM

In Music, Television or Film you have editors, studio execs and producers determining which products make it to the mass distribution. Not so on the web. There is no bottleneck for these up and comers otehr than the quality of their work and it's accessibility to readers.

The equal playing field has been the sweetest siren song of the web has to offer, but it's now a thing of legend. This isn't 1998 any more. There is simply no way to reach a non-geek humour audience without tossing a fair bit of cash around. You'd be correct if you're saying that you can be replaced someone if by that you mean someone with a kick-ass geek comic. But that still isn't making new readers, that's just dividing up the same ones.

The geek audience shows no signs of growing, and the growing non-geek audience is not being catered to. So while a shout-out from a Kurtz, or a Holkins, or even a Ghastly may act as decent advertising in the webcomic geek world, there are still millions of potential readers being ignored.

Derek Kirk Kim showed us that crossing over can be done, James Kochalka has show it can be done. If Keenspot were smart, they would put in the effort to find the next Kirk Kim, promote the hell out of him or her, and then be at the forefront the changing web landscape. I assume that Keenspot has the advertising finances to reach those people. But maybe they are barely getting by, and every month is is a nightmare of cooked books... Only Crosby can tell us for sure.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 26, 2005 1:04 PM

Tangent:

I think Keenspot managment is a joke. There is no anger or frothing or agenda. It's just an opinion and an observation. I gain nothing from Keenspot's demise, so why would I wish it? I wish that they would get their shit together and make something happen but that may be impossible at this point unless they cut out a ton of the cartoonists that are currently spotted. It's gotten too bloated unfocused. There's no way to market it.

William:

You're wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. You're wrong about the geek audience showing now signs of growing. Everything points to the opposite. You're wrong about the equal playing field being a myth. It's easier and cheaper to be independent than in 1999. Hosting costs are MONUMENTALLY cheaper. You're wrong to once again dismiss PvP and Penny-Arcade's success as flukes in geek-niche-humor. You're just wrong.

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 1:14 PM

I don't think of Keenspot as bloated and unfocused. I think of it as diverse. Let us look at the categories of comics on http://www.keenspot.com

We have Adventure, we have Gaming/Technology, we have SciFi, Surreal, Life. Flash Cartoons, Funny, and Fantasy. Each of these has a nice selection of comics to choose from.

And before you poopoo this, Modern Tales has a huge selection of comics. But I don't see you calling them "bloated" or the like.

And as for "gaining nothing" from Keenspot's demise... I doubt very much you wouldn't be saying "I told you so" and then going on about how you would have done things differently. *shrug*

Rob

Comment from: William_G posted at May 26, 2005 1:43 PM

Brilliant rebut, Scotty my boy. I can see why you're always surrounded with like-minded people.

*golf clap*

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 26, 2005 1:49 PM

William:

You're wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. You're wrong about the geek audience showing now signs of growing. Everything points to the opposite. You're wrong about the equal playing field being a myth. It's easier and cheaper to be independent than in 1999. Hosting costs are MONUMENTALLY cheaper. You're wrong to once again dismiss PvP and Penny-Arcade's success as flukes in geek-niche-humor. You're just wrong.

I agree 100% with Scott on this.

Hold that thought. I need to take a moment to bask in this rare alignment of opinion.

...

OK, I'm done. Now, as I was saying, Scott is completely right. While I think you can make an argument that the audience that comprises the "webcomic scene" (that is, the bulk of people who are actively engaged in talking about webcomics on forums, going to places like this, where the focus is pretty heavily turned on webcomics, etc.) has drifted away from the geek world, that "webcomic scene" makes up only a small portion of the actual audience that is willing to at least occasionally browse through comic archives.

If the "geek audience" were not growing, then Help Desk's audience would have peaked a few years back and gradually declined. It's targeted to a pretty specific crowd within that market, which is "people who are interested in the hijinks of the industry." In fact, Help Desk's audience has grown slowly but steadily every year, even the years where regular updates have been... erm... spotty.

User Friendly is still one of the most successful webcomics out there. A lot of people talk about it's decline, but I attribute that to the "webcomic community" being less interested in tech comics and the general audience of tech comics having interests other than the webcomic community -- in other words, there isn't as much overlap there as there would be in other genres.

The trick to genre comics getting successful is to change the perception of your comic from "this is a webcomic that belongs to this genre" to "this is something in this genre that happens to be a webcomic." That's what happened to User Friendly -- and that's why JD tends to go to tech conventions more than gaming conventions (although the webcomic community is usually represented at gaming conventions more than tech conventions).

Comment from: RoboYuji posted at May 26, 2005 2:30 PM

Every time one of these "webcomic community drama" things comes up, I find myself more and more glad that I generally keep out of it, besides observing. Mostly because they are pretty, for lack of a better term, retarded.

In fact, writing this right now is probably more involvement than I should be having . . .

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 26, 2005 2:49 PM

RoboYuji, this actually qualifies as a "fairly level-headed, reasonable discussion"... which I'm sure does very little to change your mind. :)

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 26, 2005 3:36 PM

I went to see what strips Tangent and William do and it dawned on me that they are like...wanna-be snarks.

Eric, you have immitators now. How does it feel?

I think we'll call them snarkies.

Comment from: William_G posted at May 26, 2005 3:44 PM

So Christopher, what you're saying is that people with niche interests are reading comics that pander to their particular little niche. And this is a sign that that the webcomics audience itself is growing and these prople are all running out reading every webcomic they can find?

I think the main problem is that just about everyone involved in this conversation has no sense of perspective about what we are and what we represent: Webcomics are nothing to the general public. Even more so than print comics. No one can see that because we're nose deep in it.

About a year ago, I did a survey where I asked about a hundred and fifty or so non comic readers why they dont read comics, and more specifically webcomics. I do admit this wasn't a scientific study done with a team of scholars, so feel free to use it as a convenient way to dismiss it. But there ware two recurring theme for the reasons why: "Childish crap" for print, and "Badly drawn geek crap" for webcomics... when I found the rare someone who've actually read some.

That's a hell of a stigma to get over, and few are making any move to try and get past it.

So maybe you're both right and the ranks of us geeks are growing by the leigons... or maybe, (and this is what I'm betting my money on) the same finite amount of geeks are just reading more webcomics.

So, it still comes back to fighting over the same scraps of audience with the will to spend money on us. So if we actually want an "industry" for ourselves, or to even succeed with self-syndicating, we need to start providing material the general non-geek public will care about.

Or we can all do our best to be the biggest fishies in our small pond. And given what I've observed over the last couple of years, that seems to be the prefered method.

Every time one of these "webcomic community drama" things comes up, I find myself more and more glad that I generally keep out of it, besides observing. Mostly because they are pretty, for lack of a better term, retarded. -RoboYuji

It's true. And by continuing this I'm making a lie of the vow I made yesterday to ignore this highschool and focus on making comics that kick ass.

If anyone cares to continue this little soiree with me, you can can find my email address on my site. If you don't know the URL, ask Scott.

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 26, 2005 3:53 PM

If anyone cares to continue this little soiree with me, you can can find my email address on my site.

Fair enough!

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 5:47 PM

Scott Kurtz wrote:

I went to see what strips Tangent and William do and it dawned on me that they are like...wanna-be snarks.

Eric, you have immitators now. How does it feel?

I think we'll call them snarkies.

Scott, that would be like saying that PvP is in fact a wanna-be Melonpool or Help Desk. These people started webcomics back before they were hits. They are visionaries who blazed the first paths through the internet jungle.

You, Scott, are someone who saw an opportunity and stepped in. You saw a nitch and claimed it.

Likewise, I saw a nitch and claimed it. I review the comics Eric won't, because he's interested in funny comics, while I'm more interested in storytelling comics.

Further, I primarily deal with webcomics, with occasional rants and the Tuesday movie review by Steve Anderson. It's my intention to have a minimum of one webcomic review up each day. Eric isn't interested in snarking a comic every day. Doing that was destroying his enjoyment of Websnark.

Websnark is about Eric talking about things that interest him. One of his main interests is webcomics, but includes such things as astronomy, movies, books, random events, or whatever else catches his attention.

In fact, if you were cynical you could call it a Livejournal wannabe that focuses on webcomics a lot. (Personally I think it's much more than that. Besides, we seldom see a little smiley-face showing how Eric's feeling today. *grin*)

As for William, he does a webcomic, has a blog, and is apparently going off-line for a bit. I don't think that quite qualifies. *shrug*

Robert A. Howard, Tangents reviewer (and what, btw, did you think a Tangents reviewer meant, Scott? *grin*)

http://tangents.keenspace.com

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 26, 2005 6:09 PM

No visionary here. I cribbed the idea from Bill Holbrook when he was publishing Kevin and Kell on Compuserve...

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 6:37 PM

Heh. I mentioned you, Chris, because your comic goes way back to 1996. I didn't check Kevin and Kell to see how long it had been updating. *shrug* I chose you and Troop because you had been updating for a couple years before Kurtz, Bleuel, and other cartoonists started posting their comics on-line. That I could see easily.

Rob

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 26, 2005 6:41 PM

Oh yeah. I saw Melonpool and Help Desk and just moved RIGHT ON IN!

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 26, 2005 6:45 PM

Nevermind, Kurtz. Nevermind.

Rob

Comment from: Christopher B. Wright posted at May 26, 2005 6:57 PM

Well, I guess my point is that it doesn't matter. You were inspired by Eric to review webcomics, I was inspired by Bill Holbrook to do a comic people could read online. At that point, the paths diverge: Eric has said he doesn't want to snark comics full time, and he doesn't... he talks about other stuff that interests him, too. You've said you intend to focus on webcomics and to do daily reviews, and you've kept up with it admirably so far. Bill has a nuanced comic that deals with tech/online forum culture, families, and the interaction between very... ahem... hostile social groups. I fashioned a crude spear by sharpening the end of a mouldy stick and I've been jabbing wildly at the Computer Industry ever since.

And apparently Scott has been copying Night Court all this time!

So yeah, having the same idea isn't really a problem... it's also unavoidable.

Comment from: Jamie posted at May 26, 2005 7:24 PM

So yeah, having the same idea isn't really a problem... it's also unavoidable.

Agreed. Of course, in my case, I just did what everybody else does and copied The Beatles.

Comment from: Steve Troop posted at May 26, 2005 7:59 PM

Not me. I started posting comics online because a couple of my tech friends thought it'd be cool. The coolest thing they could show me the first time I saw the web was a coffee pot brewing in Indiana. It wasn't until years later that I heard about Kevin and Kell. And it wasn't until Chris Wright and I started comparing notes that we realized that we both started posting within days of one another.

And speaking of Kurtz trying to be a Troop wannabe, way back in 1995 or so, I tried to get him a job -- inking The Melonpool Chronicles #3 comic book.

What an ironic world we live in, huh?

Comment from: Kristofer Straub posted at May 26, 2005 9:52 PM

About a month before I started Checkerboard Nightmare, I had been reading PVP and Angst Technology and thinking "damn, come on, man. I could do that shit easy."

Comment from: Ray Radlein posted at May 26, 2005 11:25 PM

Well, then — no wonder Checkerboard Nightmare wound up being just another IT industry workplace comic.

Comment from: webrunner posted at May 26, 2005 11:52 PM

I love the one where Chex's computer crashes and he curses Bill Gates. It's funny because it's true.

Comment from: Scott Kurtz posted at May 27, 2005 3:53 AM

Troop trumps Kurtz.

He's not lying about trying to get me to ink Melonpool #3. That actually happened.

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 27, 2005 12:53 PM

*shrug* I figured it did. I've met Steve. He's a decent and personable chap, and doesn't tend to make things up.

*sigh* Now I wish I'd been to another ComicCon besides the 2001 one. Damn finances...

BTW, Steve, are you and the other Blank Label Comics chaps going to rent a booth during ComicCon this year?

Robert A. Howard, Tangents reviewer

http://tangents.keenspace.com

Comment from: Tangent posted at May 27, 2005 12:55 PM

Correction. The 2002 ComicCon. I'm pretty sure it was after 9/11... had fun, met quite a few cartoonists I like there. *wry smile* Even Jeff Smith. I think the Foglios weren't at their booth at the time though...

Damn. I definitely need to get a better job and some money so I can go to another ComicCon...

Rob

Comment from: Steve Troop posted at May 27, 2005 1:55 PM

Not this year. A bunch of us will be there, but no BLC booth. We're talking about doing a bunch of smaller cons next year, though. We've come to the realization that the high cost of a booth and the average con-goer's resistance to anything web-based might not be the best use of funds.

We'd love to do a panel, though.

Steve

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